First job, acid stained basement in COLORING, STAINING & SPECIAL EFFECTS FORUM Forum

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First job, acid stained basement

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joemcbride	First job, acid stained basement		Lead	[-]
Posts: 8 10/05/09 09:35 PM	Tags : None Hi all, I just finished a training and have a job lined up for an acid stained basement floor. The area is not too large at 500sq ft. The class had a lot packed into two days, so I'm still unsure of what exactly to do. I looked online and found people who suggested washing floors with water and detergent instead of first cleaning with acid. So, I was wondering if someone could check my order list and tell me if everything is right, if something is missing, or if I should just offer to lay tile down instead A. 8 part water with 1 part acid...broom in (and I maybe wasn't paying attention but what kind of acid do I use?) B. 8 part water with 1 part clear ammonia...broom in. C. Rinse with water and vacuum x2. D. One coat of thin finish while floor is wet. E. Wait for 100% dry. F. Full bag of microfinish and full bag of thin finish. Steel trowel. G. Wait for 100% dry. H. Acid stain in pump up sprayer either no dilute or 1:1. I. 1 to 2 hours for stain reaction. J. 8 part water with 1 part clear ammonia...scrub, rinse, dry x2. K. Wait for 100% dry. L. 2-3 coats of sealer, 2-3 hours between coats. Starting out my tool arsenal is obviously limited, so I could probably rent some type of floor scrubber unless a broom works. Thanks for any feedback!
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brzelt		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4 10/05/09 10:21 PM	Hi Joe, A. Muratic, but be sure there are not any sealers or other stuff on the floor D. Saturated surface, no puddles H. I have found when staining the toppings that dilution is very useful. I. Just wait until the stain is dry whenever that is. L. Yes, but typically it is more like 30-60 mins between coats. There are a lot of guys on here that have a lot more experience than me so hopefully they will chime in.
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joemcbride		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10 10/06/09 06:08 PM	Thanks for the reply! I looked at the basement concrete today an the only major issue I see is some cracks in the concrete. At the worst there are maybe 3/4" wide by 1/2" deep cracks, the rest are pretty small. Per my distributor he suggested doing a thinfinish (thin) coat to the cracks, then doing my basecoat over them. I believe the cracks were originally caused by an old flood so hopefully there isn't much future movement there. Any other ideas for the crack fills? Also, I was told some sealer had spilled in one area of the floor. Should the acid wash clean everything up, including the sealer? One last thing... Is the CSS final sealer a big problem when used indoors? I understand that pilot lights, open flames, etc need to be shut off and food in the home should not be kept in a close area. This is an unfinished basement and I'll have basement windows open along with a ginormous fan blowing air out of the back door. From the basement, the stairs go up the kitchen but I'm planning on sealing that area off with plastic to avoid fumes traveling up and into the upstairs. The tenants that occupy the house were given suggestions to leave for the morning while the coats of sealer are applied. How long before the wonderful CSS aroma would be gone after the last coat?
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BS		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 300 10/06/09 07:32 PM	Joe, Can handle them a number of ways. Your distributor may have insight for you. You can crack chase and fill with epoxy and silica (do not grind or you lose the binding surface of the sand). You could crack chase and fill with a light coat of tf and then texture pave. You can crack chase and fill with multiple layers of tf. Personal preference as far as I can tell. Other more experienced installers may want to chime in. Bruce
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joemcbride		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 11 10/07/09 06:11 AM	Called distributor and suggested I do the epoxy and silica. I was freaking out since I didn't think I had the epoxy, but he remembered I did pick some up two weeks ago. So I think I'm set! Thanks Bruce and brzelt for the help!
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ECOV LLC		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 199 10/07/09 08:43 AM	Joe, Sounds like you have this pretty well under control. All I can add at this point is that while you are applying the Thin Finish you should make a few sample boards with any extra material that you have so that you can do some dilution testing. I find that dilution of 4:1 or even more will give plenty of color on fresh overlay and will react quickly, my personal preference is to slightly moisten the surface before applying stain to avoid application marks. CSS in a basement is one of the most dangerous applications you can try, xylene vapor isn't flamible it's EXPLOSIVE! The odor is likely to go through the house for a few days as it cures, everytime I seal a sample in the garage my wife asks "what is that toxic smell?". She should be familiar with it by now. One last thing, weather you are doing your acid wash before your overlay or the Chem-Stone stain have your ventilation going, acid fumes in a basement will get in your head. Dave Elite Crete of the Ohio Valley www.elitecreteohiovalley.com dave.sharamitaro@elitecrete.com I'm not a doctor. . . . . I just play one on concrete.
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joemcbride		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 12 10/07/09 12:46 PM	The CSS part has me a little worried now! In the small basement area, we plan to run a huge fan near the stairs to get as much of the acid smell out as possible. I suggested the tenant leave for the morning/day while the two coats of CSS are applied. Due to the distance of my distributor, I'm afraid I may not have many options for this job other than CSS. Is there some Home Depot substitute that would be less toxic and work in a pinch?
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brzelt		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5 10/07/09 02:22 PM	Joe, I still like the CSS, even with its precautions. You just need to pay attention and you will be all right. Personally I like using acetone instead of xylene indoors. The smell dissipates much quicker and most everyone that smells it is familiar and compares it to the nail salons. The xylene smell is so much more potent than the acetone to me. Both explosive don't get me wrong and do not forget. Bruce
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joemcbride		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 13 10/07/09 03:52 PM	Interesting information on the acetone Bruce, I had no idea about that but like the sound...or smell....of the stuff going away faster. Are there any drawbacks to using ether over Xylene? Assuming both have about equal explosive rates:) Last Edited By: joemcbride 10/07/09 07:57 PM. Edited 1 time.
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ECOV LLC		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 201 10/07/09 08:20 PM	Acetone is faster drying, a more familiar smell, VOC exempt, and is available at Home Depot or Sherwin Williams at about the same cost as xylene. This will help in the short term, you will still have the smell of the sealer in the house. I'm not trying to push you away from CSS, it will provide a great surface on this floor but you need to start building the expectation with the owner that it is going to smell for a few days. Your profile doesnt say where you are located but if the HVAC is running it is going to circulate it through the house. try sealing a few sq ft of sample and bringing it into the house with you and see if your wife knows that it is around. Dave Elite Crete of the Ohio Valley www.elitecreteohiovalley.com dave.sharamitaro@elitecrete.com I'm not a doctor. . . . . I just play one on concrete.
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joemcbride		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 14 10/07/09 08:37 PM	Thanks Dave. For this job I'm just going to have to do it since I don't have time to get anything else. In the future, what other sealer would you use on an indoor job? This being my first job I'm just nervous about the smell causing a problem. We have several fans to ventilate the area, and I'm hoping it just won't get upstairs too much. CSS compared to other sealer: is there a major cost difference?
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ECOV LLC		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 204 10/07/09 09:02 PM	In the future you should consider using PT-1 epoxy in a basement, there is little if any odor and will give a great color pop. Your distributor can help you with the difference in cost and with application technique. There is also no explosion hazzard. Ask about it the next time you are on the line with your distributor. Dave Elite Crete of the Ohio Valley www.elitecreteohiovalley.com dave.sharamitaro@elitecrete.com I'm not a doctor. . . . . I just play one on concrete.
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DCS Inc		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2381 10/08/09 05:10 AM	Guys, I just had a call 2 days ago from a home owner. She called me from her front yard wondering if I thought it OK to take her children inside her home that still smelled of sealer applied earlier. After talking with her she told me that she had a handyman stain her basement floor and apply a solvent based sealer. A fan was placed at the base of the stairs and that was it. 2 small basement windows opened for fresh air. After finding the product used I directed her to the msds sheets stating the dangers of explosion, health issues especially to children. She called the fire dept. and they fumigated her home. Her family spent the night in a hotel. She got a good scolding from the fire department. Be careful. gene ec-Indy
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BS	How bout WCS	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 302 10/08/09 07:00 AM	I personally haven't used the WCS, but it is water based and will not explode! Our personal preference on any indoor job is either PT1 or UV1 hands down. Bruce too
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joemcbride		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 15 10/08/09 12:25 PM	Well to avoid lawsuits and such looks like we are going to give PT1 a go. Application the same? Does it get mixed with anything? One coat of it and then 3 of wax?
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BS		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 306 10/08/09 01:01 PM	PT1 gets applied with a rigid squeegie (we like 1/8" notched) then backroll. This is how we do it. There are others that do it a little difrferent. What ever works and you're comfortable with. Takes a little practice, but you'll find a technique that works for you. Bruce too
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ECOV LLC	broken record time	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 208 10/08/09 08:24 PM	Joe, PT series epoxy has a few tricks in application but it isn't rocket surgery, I know that we say this a lot but it is best if you have a detailed meeting with your distributor or at least a call. This conversation before the product goes down is so much easier on both of you than the discussion after it is down and there is a hick-up. You are on the right track with your decision to use this over CSS in a basement. Dave Elite Crete of the Ohio Valley www.elitecreteohiovalley.com dave.sharamitaro@elitecrete.com I'm not a doctor. . . . . I just play one on concrete.
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joemcbride		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 16 10/11/09 02:42 AM	Ok, so just about to the PT1 part. So for application I plan to squeegie on. I'm a little concerned with the inventory that I have in stock (2 one-gallon containers of PT1). I read in the little elite crete manual that one gallon container of PT1 should cover 250 square feet. After all the other supplied I have used I just don't see how this can be possible. Does it go on super thin or something for it to last 250 square ft? I've used the epoxy for a little bit of crack fill and such...I'm totally confused how I'm supposed to get 2 gallons of that stuff through the whole job!
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ECOV LLC	PI.219	#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 210 10/11/09 08:45 AM	Joe, The product info sheet for E Series Epoxy sheet that is posted on line shows 100 to 175 sq' per gallon, you are going to have to pull it to about 6 mils to get 250 out of it. That's tight. At 100 to 175 you are at between 9 and 16 mils which is more manageable. Better double check your plan. PI0219 6. COVERAGE: Typical application rates vary from 100 to 175 ft2 per gallon. Coverage will also vary depending on method of application and the porosity of the surface. Although one coat is not uncommon, user must determine application needs. Dave Elite Crete of the Ohio Valley www.elitecreteohiovalley.com dave.sharamitaro@elitecrete.com I'm not a doctor. . . . . I just play one on concrete.
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BS		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 314 10/12/09 01:44 PM	For a clear coat on smooth surface, we like to keep it at 100 to 125 sq/ft gallon. Preferably 100 sq/ft. Nice 16 mil coating. Easy to work with. Bruce too
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ECOV LLC		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 215 10/12/09 08:10 PM	I'm with B2 on this, its easier to layout too with a one gallon pour covering a 10 x 10 area, keep it simple. Dave Elite Crete of the Ohio Valley www.elitecreteohiovalley.com dave.sharamitaro@elitecrete.com I'm not a doctor. . . . . I just play one on concrete.
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First job, acid stained basement

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